Eternal Punishment
and Eternal Destruction

And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the Righteous into Life Eternal. Matthew 25:46

And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction. Second Thessalonians 1:9

Summary of Argument

The words eternal punishment do not mean eternal punishing. They mean eternal punishment and that punishment is eternal death. The same is true for everlasting destruction

Then they met on the following Thursday to continue their discussion about the eternal fate of the unredeemed, John decided to place the two verses most often quoted in support of eternal torment on the discussion table.

"Perhaps the most quoted verses for eternal torment are Matthew 25:43-46,1 and Second Thessalonians 1:9." Said John, "In Matthew 25:46 Christ speaks of eternal punishment. The King James translates this term as 'everlasting punishment.'2 Let's read the Matthew passages together so we will know exactly what they say:

41. Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels;

42. For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43. “I was a stranger and you did not take me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.”

44. Then they also will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?”

45. Then He will answer them, saying, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.”

46. And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

“These are heavy scriptures,” said John. “Christ tells us that it is a sin to ignore the needs of others, and that the punishment for that sin is an eternal, everlasting, punishment. The King James version translates the word ‘everlasting’ but the root word referring to the punishment is ‘eternal.’ The meaning is essentially the same for any translation.

“There you have it!” Said the First Elder. “How clearer can it be? Eternal punishment, eternal torment from the words of Christ Himself. You can’t argue with that!”

“I am not trying to argue about it,” said John. “I am just looking for its meaning.”

“It’s meaning? Its meaning is obvious,” said the First Elder. “Eternal punishment is punishment that lasts forever.”

“Yes, it is” said John. “Eternal punishment is indeed a punishment that lasts forever, but what is the punishment? The scripture tells us that the punishment is eternal but this scripture does not tell us what the punishment is."

“The punishment is eternal torment." Said the First Elder.

“But that is not what scripture says," John responded. "If the eternal punishment is eternal torment, you must first show me at least one scripture that says that the punishment is eternal torment rather than eternal death because all the other scriptures say that the punishment is death.3

“But what about Second Peter 2:174 where it says that a mist of darkness is reserved forever for the unredeemed? Asked the Second Elder.

“Interesting verse,” replied John. “But that passage does not mention eternal torment or any torment. I believe that it refers to the darkness of hell. Perhaps darkness is the consequence assigned to those whose sins were not as serious as those in flames.”

“But they all mean eternal torment!” Said the First Elder.

John continued, “If the verse intended to say that the eternal punishment is eternal torment, then why do all the others say that the punishment is death?" What are you going to do with the fifty verses that say the punishment is "death?" Don't they not mean what they say?5 If the final punishment is not death, why is the final punishment called "death" (the second death)?"6

There was no response.

"And are you saying that Ezekiel is simply wrong when he says

The word of the Lord came to me saying…'Behold all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son in Mine. The soul that sins will die?7

If inerrant scripture tells us from the very mouth of God that the soul that sins will die, why do you teach that the soul that sins will not die, but instead be preserved in a fully conscious state and feeling pain forever? That is not death."

Then the Second Elder asked, “If you are correct and the punishment is death, why would the scripture specify that it is eternal punishment rather than saying simply that it is a "punishment"? You don't have to specify that death is eternal because all death is eternal. There is nothing on-going about death. Eternal torment is the only possible 'eternal' punishment. If scripture did not mean that the punishment is on-going, why would it say 'eternal' punishment?”

“It has to." Said John, "Because not every death is eternal. The first death, which is the death of the body, is not eternal because it is followed by a resurrection for judgment. All of the unredeemed bodies will be resurrected for the purpose of judgment.8 But the second death is the death of the soul and that death is eternal because there are no resurrections after it. That is why scripture refers to the second death as an eternal punishment. It is differentiating the second death from the first death."

John continued, "After the second death, scripture records nothing for the unredeemed. No resurrection, no judgment, no hell, no nothing. Just death forever.”

"What about Satan?" Asked the Second Elder, "His torment goes on forever. Why doesn't he die in the second death just like everyone else?"

"Look at Revelation 21:8," said John. "Only unredeemed people (humans) are judged, and their punishment is the second death. Just like Romans 6:23 tells us, "the wages of sin is death." Remember, Satan is never judged, nor are the antichrist or the false prophet. There is no first death for them and no second death either. They are thrown alive into the lake of fire and they never die. That's the whole point; they are not permitted to die. Just read Revelation 20:10."

“But what about Second Thessalonians 1:9?” Asked the Second Elder, “That scripture uses the term 'eternal destruction.' And that means destruction that continues for eternity.”9

“How could it mean that?” Asked John.

“Well,” said the Second Elder, “because that’s what it says. It is destruction and it is eternal.”

“Continually being destroyed forever?”

“Of course.”

“That is what you see because that is what you expect to see. But that is not what the words say.”

“What do you mean?” Asked the Second Elder.

“How can something be destroyed but never be destroyed? If someone's soul is destroyed, it can’t be tormented because it is already been destroyed."

"You can have destruction when you are tormenting!" Said the First Elder.

"Something that has been destroyed cannot be tormented because it is dead. But, your arguments might have some merit if you could point to just one scripture that says the unredeemed will be tormented eternally. But that cannot be done because its no such scripture. And there is no such scripture because if there were such a scripture, it would contradict all of the other scriptures that say that the penalty for sin is death."

“Eternal destruction means destruction that lasts for eternity.” Said the First Elder.

"You are correct," said John. "It is destruction that is never reversed. It is like a ceramic container that is thrown on the ground and smashed in a hundred pieces, swept up and thrown away. It will never be put together again. It has been permanently destroyed."

John continued, "But just because a body is destroyed on earth does not mean that the same body will not rise again. Christians' bodies have been eaten by lions, burned alive and destroyed in every imaginable way. But that does not mean that they will not rise again.10"

"What difference does that make?"

"That is the reason why scripture specifies that the destruction of the unredeemed is eternal," said John, "because not all destructions in scripture are eternal."

"No!" Said the First Elder, "It is continual destroying that never destroys!"

“Then you are contradicting all of the scriptures that say that the final judgment is death. The passage does not say eternal destroying; it says eternal destruction. That is a different phrase in Greek."11

"The Greek word that is translated ‘destruction’ means destruction, ruin and death;’12 it means the same in English. It means that they are ruined, destroyed and dead and when it says that it is eternal it means that there is no reversing the destruction. The destruction occurs and it is over for all time. No resurrection. No judgment. No nothing.”

““And that is why Jesus teaches that the soul can be killed but only God can do it:

... fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body…13

"Did you notice how killing the soul and destroying the soul mean the same thing in that scripture?"

"Or maybe it means that God can kill the soul but He doesn't. All He does is destroy it." Said the First Elder.

"They are the same thing…" Said the Second Elder.

"The scripture is talking about the second death." Said John. "The soul is destroyed in the lake of fire because the unredeemed souls are thrown into the lake of fire and die in the second death.14 The soul is killed, just like Ezekiel says in Ezekiel 18:4, "The soul that sins shall die."15 That is what eternal destruction means. It is the same thing as eternal death. It simply does not follow to argue that even though "the soul that sins will die,"16 when the soul is judged and cast into the lake of fire to suffer the second death and be eternally destroyed, it is never really destroyed and never really dies, but instead remains effectively alive, fully conscious, aware of its surroundings and feeling pain.”

There was a pause in the conversation.

"Look at what Christ says in Luke 20." Said John.

…those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead [the redeemed] neither marry, nor are given in marriage; for neither they die any more…17

Christ is distinguishing saved from the unsaved by saying that they can't die any more. The unredeemed can die, and do die. What is the use of His saying that if the unredeemed never really die? You see, no matter where you turn in scripture, it always says death. It never says eternal torment.

"And what about Jesus saying that whoever believes in Him will never die?18 Does He mean that Jesus saves them from dying the first death, the death of the body? No. He saves them from the second death, the death of the soul."

"So?" Asked the Second Elder.

"So Jesus Christ is telling you that He saves you from death."

There was a long pause.

"So why is He not saving you from death?"

There was no reply to this question, but all shook hands and agreed to meet again next week.

2

The following Thursday, John decided to place the two verses most often quoted in support of eternal torment on the discussion table.

"Perhaps the most quoted verses for eternal torment are Matthew 25:43-46, and Second Thessalonians 1:9." Said John, "In Matthew 25:46 Christ speaks of eternal punishment. The New American Standard translates this term as 'eternal punishment.' Let's read the Matthew passages together so we will know exactly what they say:

41. Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

42. for I was hungry, and you gave me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;

43. I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'

44. Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or inn prison, and did not take care of You?'

45. Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

46. And these will go away into eternal punishment, bu the righteous into eternal life.

“These are heavy scriptures,” said John. “Christ tells us that it is a sin to ignore the needs of others, and that the punishment for that sin is an eternal, everlasting, punishment. The King James version translates the word ‘everlasting’ but the root word referring to the punishment is ‘eternal,’ so the meaning is essentially the same in any translation."

“There you have it!” Said the first elder. “How clearer can it be? Eternal punishment, eternal torment from the words of Christ Himself. You can’t argue with that!”

“I am not trying to argue about it,” said John. “I am just looking for its meaning.”

“It’s meaning is obvious,” said the first elder. “Eternal punishment. Punishment that last forever.”

“Yes,” said John “But what is the punishment? Imagine a courtroom after a long criminal trial. The jury comes back with a guilty verdict and the Bailiff says, "The defendant will rise." The guilty man stands up. The judge says, "You have been adjudged guilty and I hereby sentence you to be punished and that punishment will last forever. Case closed."

"So what's the punishment?" Asked the second elder.

“It’s eternal torment.” Said the first elder.
“But that is not what scripture says," John responded. "If the punishment is eternal torment, you must first show me at least one scripture that says that the punishment is eternal torment. And there is no such scripture. But there are numerous scriptures teaching that the punishment for sin is death and that the soul that sins shall die. In fact, all of the scriptures say that the punishment of sin is death and there is not one scripture saying that the punishment is eternal torment."

“But what about Second Peter 2:17 where it says that a mist of darkness is reserved forever for the unredeemed? Asked the first elder.

“Interesting verse,” replied John. “But that passage does not mention eternal torment or any torment. I believe that it refers to the darkness of hell or the darkness of eternal death.”

“But they all mean eternal torment!” Said the first elder.

“But there is no scripture that says the unredeemed will suffer eternal torment." Said John. "Don’t you think that if the Holy Spirit had wished to teach eternal torment for the unredeemed, He would have used those words at least once?”

“Well…”

John continued, “If the verses intended to say that the eternal punishment is eternal torment, then why do they all say that the punishment is death?" What are you going to do with the forty or so verses that say the punishment is 'death,' don't mean what they say? And if the final punishment is not death, why is it called the second death? And are you Ezekiel is simply wrong when God Himself speaks through the mouth of Ezekiel and says that "the soul that sins shall die?"

There was not response.

Then the second elder asked, “So why would the scripture say eternal punishment? Death is not an eternal punishment. Death is a one-time punishment. If scripture did not mean that the punishment is on-going it would not say 'eternal' punishment.”

“Certainly it would,” said John. “It has to. Because not every death is eternal. Remember that scripture tells of two deaths and the first one is not eternal. The soul lives on after the death of the body; we know that from the parable of Lazarus. That is why scripture refers to the second death as eternal punishment. It is differentiating it from the first death that is not eternal."

It is for this reason that scripture says that the final punishment (second death) is an eternal, permanent punishment. After the second death, scripture records no resurrection, no judgment, no hell, no nothing. Just death forever.”

"But death is still death when it is eternal and it is still death when it is not eternal. It's just a question of what dies. In the first death only the body dies, but not the soul. So after the first death the dead body is buried and we hear nothing else about it until it is resurrected. But the soul continues to live, and we do hear much about what happens to the soul after the body dies."

“But what about Second Thessalonians 1:9?” Asked the first elder, “That scripture uses the term eternal destruction. And that means destruction that continues for eternity.”

“How could it mean that?” Asked John.

“Well,” said the first elder, “because that’s what it says. It is destruction and it is eternal.”

“Continually being destroyed forever?”

“Of course.”

“That is what you see because you expect to see it, but that is not what the words say.”

“What do you mean?” Asked the second elder.

“How can something be destroyed but never really destroyed? If someone's soul is destroyed, it can’t be tormented because it is already destroyed. Torment has to occur without destruction if it is to continue. Destruction and torment are two different words."

"You can have destruction when you are tormenting!"

"Something that is already destroyed cannot be tormented. But, your arguments might have some merit if you could point to just one scripture that says the unredeemed will be tormented eternally. But that cannot be done because its no such scripture. And there is no such scripture because if there were such a scripture, it would contradict all of the other scriptures that say that sin causes death and never mention eternal torment."

“Eternal destruction means destruction that lasts for eternity.” Said the first elder.

"You are correct," said John. "It is destruction that is never reversed. It is permanent. It is like a ceramic container that is thrown on the ground and smashed in a hundred pieces, swept up and thrown away. It will never be put together again."

"No!" Said the first elder, "It is continual destroying that never destroys!"

“Then you are contradicting all of the scriptures that say it is death. The passage does not say eternal destroying; it says eternal destruction. That is a different phrase in Greek. The Greek word that is translated ‘destruction’ means destruction, ruin and death,’ and it means the same in English. It means that they are ruined, destroyed and dead and when it says that it is eternal it means that there is no reversing the destruction. The destruction occurs and it is over for all time. No resurrection. No judgment. No nothing.”

“That doesn’t make sense,” said the first elder. “It has to mean eternal destroying because if destruction means what you say it means, there is no reason for scripture to call it ‘eternal’ destruction because destruction is always permanent.”

“Not at all,” said John, “The reason why scripture has to say that this destruction is eternal is the same as the reason why it has to say that the punishment is eternal. Scripture has to clarify that the second death is not the same as the first death. In the first death the body is destroyed, but the soul continues to live until the final judgment which is the 'second death, which occurs when the soul and resurrected body is cast into the lake of fire. This is called the second death. And after the second death scripture records absolutely nothing, no existence, no hell, no resurrection, no judgment; just nothing. When they die the second time they never come back. They are destroyed and their destruction is permanent and it lasts for eternity: They are permanently destroyed.”

“So that is why it is called eternal destruction?” Asked the second elder.

“Yes.” Said John. “And that is why the scripture teaches that the soul can be killed and that only God can do it:

... fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.

"Did you notice how killing the soul and destroying the soul mean the same thing in that scripture? The scripture is talking about the second death. The soul is destroyed in the lake of fire because the unredeemed souls are in hell and hell itself is thrown into the lake of fire. Certainly, the soul is killed, just like this verse says. Just like Ezekiel 18:4 says. That is what eternal destruction means.”

There was a pause in the conversation.

John continued, “That is the reason why scripture has to specify that the destruction and the punishment are eternal. But the punishment is death, not eternal torment. You are seeing eternal torment because you have been taught to see it. Neither of these verses say eternal torment, nor do they imply it.”

"Look at what Christ says in Luke 20:

…they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more…

Christ is distinguishing them from the unredeemed by saying that they can't die any more. Whereas, the unredeemed can, and do die. What is the use of His saying that they can't die any more if the unredeemed don't really die but are tormented forever? You see, no matter where you turn in scripture, it always says death, and never eternal torment."

They all shook hands and agreed to meet again next week.The following Thursday, John decided to place the two verses most often quoted in support of eternal torment on the discussion table.

"Perhaps the most quoted verses for eternal torment are Matthew 25:43-46 and Second Thessalonians 1:9." Said John, "In Matthew 25:46 Christ speaks of eternal punishment. The King James translates this term as 'everlasting punishment.' Let's read the Matthew passages together so we will know exactly what they say:

41. Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels;

42. For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43. “I was a stranger and you did not take me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.”

44. Then they also will answer Him, saying, “Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?”

45. Then He will answer them, saying, “Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.”

46. And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

“These are heavy scriptures,” said John. “Christ tells us that it is a sin to ignore the needs of others, and that the punishment for that sin is an eternal, everlasting, punishment. The King James version translates the word ‘everlasting’ but the root word referring to the punishment is ‘eternal,’ so the meaning is essentially the same.

“There you have it!” Said the first elder. “How clearer can it be? Eternal punishment, eternal torment from the words of Christ Himself. You can’t argue with that!”

“I am not trying to argue about it,” said John. “I am just looking for its meaning.”

“It’s meaning is obvious,” said the first elder. “Eternal punishment. Punishment that last forever.”

“Yes,” said John “But what is the punishment? Imagine a courtroom after a long criminal trial. The jury comes back with a guilty verdict and the Bailiff says, "The defendant will rise." The guilty man stands up. The judge says, "You have been adjudged guilty and I hereby sentence you to be punished and that punishment will last forever. Case closed."

"So what's the punishment?" Asked the second elder.

“It’s eternal torment.” Said the first elder.

“But that is not what scripture says," John responded. "If the punishment is eternal torment, you must first show me at least one scripture that says that the punishment is eternal torment. And there is no such scripture. But there are numerous scriptures teaching that the punishment for sin is death and that the soul that sins shall die. In fact, all of the scriptures say that the punishment of sin is death and there is not one scripture saying that the punishment is eternal torment."

“But what about Second Peter 2:17 where it says that a mist of darkness is reserved forever for the unredeemed? Asked the first elder.

“Interesting verse,” replied John. “But that passage does not mention eternal torment or any torment. I believe that it refers to the darkness of hell or the darkness of eternal death.”

“But they all mean eternal torment!” Said the first elder.

“But there is no scripture that says the unredeemed will suffer eternal torment." Said John. "Don’t you think that if the Holy Spirit had wished to teach eternal torment for the unredeemed, He would have used those words at least once?”

“Well…”

John continued, “If the verses intended to say that the eternal punishment is eternal torment, then why do they all say that the punishment is death? What are you going to do with the fifty or so verses that say the punishment is 'death?' Dont they mean what they say? And if the final punishment is not death, why is it called 'death,' the second death in Revelation 21:8? And are you saying Ezekiel is simply wrong when God Himself speaks through him in Ezekiel 18:4 and clearly says that 'the soul that sins shall die' ?"

There was not response.

Then the second elder asked, “So why would the scripture say eternal punishment? Death is not an eternal punishment. Death is a one-time punishment. If scripture did not mean that the punishment is on-going it would not say 'eternal' punishment.”

“Certainly it would,” said John. “It has to. Because not every death is eternal. Remember that unbelievers will have two deaths and the first one is not eternal. The soul lives on after the death of the body; we know that from the parable of Lazarus. That is why scripture refers to the second death as eternal punishment. It is differentiating it from the first death that is not eternal."

It is for this reason that scripture says that the final punishment (second death) is an eternal, permanent punishment. After the second death, scripture records no resurrection, no judgment, no hell, no nothing. Just death forever.”

"But death is still death when it is eternal and it is still death when it is not eternal. It's just a question of what dies and whether there will be a resurrection. In the first death only the body dies, but not the soul. So after the first death the dead body is buried and we hear nothing else about it until it is resurrected. Nobody questions that meaning of the word death when applied to a dead body. But the soul continues to live, and we do hear much about what happens to the soul after the body dies."

“But what about Second Thessalonians 1:9?” Asked the first elder, “That scripture uses the term eternal destruction. And that means destruction that continues for eternity.”

“How could it mean that?” Asked John.

“Well,” said the first elder, “because that’s what it says. It is destruction and it is eternal.”

“Continually being destroyed forever?”

“Of course.”

“That is what you see because you expect to see it, but that is not what the words say.”

“What do you mean?” Asked the second elder.

“How can something be destroyed but never really destroyed? If someone's soul is destroyed, it can’t be tormented because it is already destroyed; its dead. Torment has to occur without destruction if it is to continue. Destruction and torment are two different words."

"You can have destruction when you are tormenting!"

"Something that is already destroyed cannot be tormented. But, your arguments might have some merit if you could point to just one scripture that says the unredeemed will be tormented eternally. But that cannot be done because its no such scripture. And there is no such scripture because if there were such a scripture, it would contradict all of the other scriptures that say that sin causes death and never mention eternal torment."

“Eternal destruction means destruction that lasts for eternity.” Said the first elder.

"You are correct," said John. "It is destruction that is never reversed. It is permanent. It is like a ceramic container that is thrown on the ground and smashed in a hundred pieces, swept up and thrown away. It will never be put together again."

"No!" Said the first elder, "It is continual destroying that never destroys!"

“Then you are contradicting all of the scriptures that say it is death. The passage does not say eternal destroying; it says eternal destruction. That is a different phrase in Greek. The Greek word that is translated ‘destruction’ means destruction, ruin and death,’ and it means the same in English. It means that they are ruined, destroyed and dead and when it says that it is eternal it means that there is no reversing the destruction. The destruction occurs and it is over for all time. No resurrection. No judgment. No nothing.”

“That doesn’t make sense,” said the first elder. “It has to mean eternal destroying because if destruction means what you say it means, there is no reason for scripture to call it ‘eternal’ destruction because destruction is always permanent.”

“Not at all,” said John, “The reason why scripture has to say that this destruction is eternal is the same as the reason why it has to say that the punishment is eternal. Scripture has to clarify that the second death is not the same as the first death. In the first death the body is destroyed, but the soul continues to live until the final judgment which is the 'second death, which occurs when the soul and resurrected body is cast into the lake of fire. This is called the second death. And after the second death scripture records absolutely nothing, no existence, no hell, no resurrection, no judgment; just nothing. When they die the second time they never come back. They are destroyed and their destruction is permanent and it lasts for eternity: They are permanently destroyed.”

“So that is why it is called eternal destruction?” Asked the second elder.

“Yes.” Said John. “And that is why the scripture teaches that the soul can be killed and that only God can do it:

... fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.

"Did you notice how killing the soul and destroying the soul mean the same thing in that scripture? The scripture is talking about the second death. The soul is destroyed in the lake of fire because the unredeemed souls are in hell and hell itself is thrown into the lake of fire. Certainly, the soul is killed, just like this verse says. Just like Ezekiel 18:4 says. That is what eternal destruction means.”

There was a pause in the conversation.
John continued, “That is the reason why scripture has to specify that the destruction and the punishment are eternal. But the punishment is death, not eternal torment. You are seeing eternal torment because you have been taught to see it. Neither of these verses say eternal torment, nor do they imply it.”

"Look at what Christ says in Luke 20:

…they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more…

Christ is distinguishing them from the unredeemed by saying that they can't die any more. Whereas, the unredeemed can, and do die. What is the use of His saying that they can't die any more if the unredeemed don't really die but are tormented forever? You see, no matter where you turn in scripture, it always says death, and never eternal torment."

They all shook hands and agreed to meet again the following week.